Episode 398: How to Make Money on Spinoffs and Insider Buying
On this week's Stansberry Investor Hour, Dan and Corey welcome Jim Osman back to the show. Jim is the founder and chief vision officer of consulting group The Edge – which helps its clients and investors unlock hidden corporate value from "global special situations."
Jim kicks off the show by detailing his new book that's coming out next month. It's targeted at individual investors, giving them more tools to succeed against Wall Street. Jim also discusses the importance of being yourself on social media, staying objective when it comes to investing, and how he finds special situations to profit from – mainly, spinoffs and insider buying. He explains how everyday investors can gain both an analytical edge and a behavioral edge over the markets. But as he warns, gaining such an edge involves doing your own work...
People don't take the time to look at these things. And I think that's the overall message. I'd say, for investors, if a company is doing something strategically or changes their corporate structure, just look into it. Just take the time, because that can be some real gold in there.
Next, Jim covers what's going on in the markets right now. He says there are a lot of spinoffs happening, but he has found that in the past year, the parent company has provided the best value. Further, he shares how he identifies the best spinoffs, how the future factors into his investment decisions, and why he believes value investing is dead. Jim then names two companies undergoing a spinoff that he finds attractive today, and one that he's keeping on his radar. He notes...
These are great companies but they're trying to get leaner as the market progresses because they have to. That conglomerate thing just doesn't work anymore. And you're going to see this, perhaps, in the tech industry as well.
Finally, Jim discusses a recent Forbes piece he penned about Boeing's current problems. The company is hemorrhaging money and doesn't have a visionary leader to right the ship, but spinoffs could be the solution. Jim says Boeing is "really going to have to do something." After that, he circles back to – and goes further in depth on – insider buying. And he shares his thoughts on initial public offerings and special purpose acquisition companies ("SPACs")...
We'd done this study on SPACs, and we said, "None of these are any good." They're all losing money... It's not a great hunting ground.
Click here or on the image below to watch the video interview with Jim right now. For the full audio episode, click here.
(Additional past episodes are located here.)
Dan Ferris: Hello and welcome to the Stansberry Investor Hour. I'm Dan Ferris. I'm the editor of Extreme Value and The Ferris Report, both published by Stansberry Research.
Corey McLaughlin: And I'm Corey McLaughlin, editor of the Stansberry Digest. Today we talk with Jim Osman, founder of The Edge Group.
Dan Ferris: Jim is a wonderful follow on Twitter, if you're on Twitter. I follow him there. He has lots of great ideas. You can read his columns in Forbes, lots of great stock ideas there. And I promise you, get out your pen and pencil. You're about to hear some ticker symbols and some great ideas. So let's not delay. Let's do it right now. Let's talk with Jim Osman. Let's do it right now.
[Music]
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Dan Ferris: Jim, welcome back to the show. Great to see you again.
Jim Osman: Thank you, Dan. Good to see you.
Dan Ferris: And of course, we haven't spoken to you since September 2022, a few things have happened since then. Perhaps most importantly, I now have a co-host. [Laughter] So we'll be, we'll be hitting you from all sides for the next just shy of an hour.
Corey McLaughlin: Glad to hear that's the most important thing. OK.
Dan Ferris: So I really like having you on, Jim, because you are, you're focused on an area that is actually quite near and dear to my heart. One of the first books that I ever read about investing, years and years ago, was Joel Greenblatt's book, I forget the crazy title of it.
Jim Osman: [You Can Be a Stock Market Genius]
Dan Ferris: Yeah, that one, and it's got a great, it's got a lot of great stuff about special situations, which is your thing. And I was just, I was just logging on to Twitter now, because I thought, oh, I'm going to interview Jim in about ten minutes. Maybe I better look and see what he's saying about anything.
Jim Osman: [Laughter]
Dan Ferris: So, but I see that you have a book coming out. It looks like it's coming out February 18.
Jim Osman: Yeah, it's a great plug. Well, I mean, yeah, thanks, Dan. I mean, I don't know if you want to say, but the plug is basically, yeah, look…
Dan Ferris: Yeah, plug away.
Jim Osman: … I was approached by a number of people, actually. You know, I love speaking in schools, and some of those approached me. And then they said, "Jim, you've got a lot of knowledge. Can you put that down on paper for us for the –." And you can see by my tweets, you can see by everything I put out there, I want to help people, right? I want people to win. The small investor, particularly, always feels at a disadvantage. You know, he always feels that Wall Street has got something above him.
But in reality, you know what? If people do the work, if people look in the right places, they're probably at advantage to Wall Street. That's a strange thing to say, but that's what I believe. So I basically put all my stuff down on paper. I said to Joel, I said, it's probably an upgrade on your book. And I'm not sure it'd be like that, but it's something that, you know, if you're an investor, and you're looking for new ways of creating alpha, I'm not sure whether I desperately like that word either, but sort of creating just money, really, and returns, then it's a great place to look. It comes out, you can preorder, it comes out in about, probably about two weeks' time.
Dan Ferris: That's great. I will definitely be among the first buyers.
Jim Osman: I appreciate that. Thank you.
Dan Ferris: Yeah. So I have to say, this is a totally personal thing, but I'm shocked that you still follow me on Twitter. I've followed you for some time now. I read all your stuff on Twitter. But I'm so strident and so obnoxious that when a perfect gentleman like yourself, continues to follow me, I think, "Well, this guy must really believe in free speech, because he still following me." You know? [Laughter]
Jim Osman: I think that I like real people, you know. And I think that sometimes, you can play to the masses and a lot of those accounts do, and a lot of those accounts look for clicks, but I just am what I am. So I think that, you know, that cuts two ways. Right? One way is that, you know, people appreciate you, and appreciate your honesty, and integrity, and the way you look, the way you say, "Here's what I am." I've always been that guy.
But then it can also rub people the wrong way and they don't like it. But I think in this sort of world, you know, we're all after the same goals in terms of, you know, in terms of investing anyway, looking to make a return and just understand what we're trying to do. And rather than be led down a garden path by some people, who have some fantastic stories that just never happened − and fantastic stories sell. And I'm just not about that.
Dan Ferris: I'm just saying, I'm trying to rub them the wrong way, and they're still there. I don't get it. [Laughter]
Jim Osman: Well, it's [crosstalk].
Dan Ferris: That's right. [Laughter]
Jim Osman: I think way back with Facebook, I think 2008 − I think, you know, my goal was to, was to lose as many people as I can, you know, [inaudible] –
Dan Ferris: Yeah, and you're right, Jim, you're a very real presence on Twitter. You just tell it like you see it. And I don't know what you do, if you do anything at all, to try to get followers. Do you do anything at all? Because you've got 38,800 followers, you know, just by being real about what you do, which is impressive.
Jim Osman: Listen, like I say, this cuts two ways, Dan. There's some big accounts out there that were selling the kind of – here's an example, right? So, you know, one big account, I won't mention it, but, you know, you're selling the bear story from day one. This was, like post, you know, 2021, 2022. This is that fantastic, kind of, "blind them with science" tweets. And it was obvious to me, everything was cheap.
You know, certainly the fans at that stage, and you can go back to some of those tweets which I made, you know, Meta at $88 or $90. When I said, listen, this is a no-brainer, because some of the parts is 300 at least. And, you know, you add up all what they got. And like, if it goes anymore, you know, I'm caving my head in, and mortgaging my house to buy even more. So, you know that, rather than the kind of feeling.
So I think that I can't – I'm trying to take out the feeling, really, in what I say, because I know that feeling, certainly in investing, will get you killed. And, you know, I don't believe in feeling. Yeah, if I'm wrong on something, hey, I've got it wrong. I don't believe it. I'm not wearing it down to zero. So I think some of those accounts will really sell the bad news. And as you know, as a journal, that bad news sells. So I'm not really about pushing the bad news, just stuff that will make people money.
Dan Ferris: Amen. I may have pushed a bit of bad news now and then. But, so let's talk about that. You're on a mission to help people. And that makes your Twitter really fun to follow. Can't wait to see the book too.
Jim Osman: Thank you.
Dan Ferris: And you want to take the emotion out of investing − you know, take that feeling out, like you just said. Which is, I have to say, all the best investors, and we've talked to dozens and dozens of them… I've been doing this podcast since, I think, 2018 now, and you know, guest after guest after guest, if they really know what they're doing, they say that same thing. We've had one guy who said he tries to use his emotions, but all the rest say, "Well, I have this process to try to take the emotion out of it."
Maybe we should go through a bit of that process. You know, how you source ideas and what looks like an attractive idea to you, and so forth. I know special situations covers, you know, a fair number of different types of plays, but I'm sure there's more to it simply than that.
Jim Osman: Yeah, let's unpack that a little bit, Dan. And so like you say, we shop in the – or we fish in the area of special situations. Now, to the normal man, let's face it, they're like, "What's that? I don't know what that is. I'm going to stay away." But if I say, "Do you like stocks that go up?" They're going to say, "Yeah, I do." You know, here's an area where a lot of stocks go up. So, the fundamental basis of that is something where the small investor, or the nimble investor − I don't know if I'm small investor, we're all investors − should really look.
And spinoffs are that dynamic, where − you know, that when we can go into a little bit more − but is a place where there's just inherent value. And we saw it recently with, [inaudible] General Electric. Now, if you look, I have a full blog out there, which is free, if you type "Jim Osman Forbes," you can see a lot of my work there, and I give a lot away. But one of the ones was General Electric, it was one where certainly Americans were brought up on, "This is a company you've just got to own. This is Jack. This is fantastic." And then he handed the reins out to Immelt, and, you know what happened then.
But ultimately, what they decided in 2021, say, "You know what, to save the company…" and it really was, it was a desperate attempt, "We're going to have to break up into three pieces." And if you look at the performance of those entities, you know, [inaudible], health care, and the recent aviation one too, GEV, you see enormous, enormous value creation, some of the best-performing stocks out there over the last couple of years. And that says everything, because it was a release of value from something like that.
And listen, if you've got an area like that… Well, if I say to you, "You know what, there's a load of that stuff in there, you want to look." So they might not be this high profile as GE. But in fact, what we're seeing now, is many companies that are mainstream doing this. You see the Honeywells, WDC coming up, Lennar, all these companies that people know and love, they're doing the same thing because they know there's inherent value creation if they're to break up.
So that's really the pool. So let's just separate that bit from the start, that this is a port where you should be looking as an investor period, right? The rest we can go into in the process. But what I always say is, you know what, to, again, for the small investor, it needs to do a little bit of work, right? There's no free money out there, all right? That has never been the case in investing. So I always say that, one, you should have some sort of analytical edge over the market, right? What do you see that they don't? Is it cheap? Why is it cheap? Is it just a terminally declined company? Or is it just cheap for a reason?
You know, let's take that example that I said before, Meta. When I saw Meta, everyone was saying, "I've got DMs." They said, "Jim, you look stupid buying Meta, because no one uses Facebook anymore." I was like, "What?" I was like, Meta makes up so many more entities than Facebook. This is crazy. And if you add those parts up, it's huge. So that was my analytical edge at the time. But also, I say, do you have a behavioral edge? This is a very interesting one, because you need to sort of disagree with the market.
And that's a tough one for most people. Because if everybody's selling, maybe you should be buying, right? And then again, it sounds like kind of silly, but again, let's take Meta, the example. Everyone says, "No, Jim, you're wrong." But one: analytical edge, it was cheap. Two: behavioral edge. It's like, this is going to zero for everyone. I was like, no way is it going to zero. And I took a lot of backlash, like, I said, in buying this at $88. It's now, what is it, $600/$700 three to four years later.
Then, you know, it's one of those ones where − if you add that together, you've got a great investment, and then you can start doing a little bit more work. But that's what I say, have the analytical edge, not just cheap, because things can stay cheap, as you know, and they can stay cheap forever… And they can get cheaper, but have the behavioral edge as well. And when you've got those two things aligned, you potentially got some great investments. And that's where I believe, the special situations, the spin-off space, can be.
Dan Ferris: Do you do other types of special [situations] besides spinoffs? Or it sounds like you're really focused on spinoffs.
Corey McLaughlin: Yeah, that was my question, Dan.
Jim Osman: Yeah, absolutely. I think, like, around 70% of stuff we do, because there's enough of them, and they're very disjointed in the way they come on to the market. But if we take some more of that, I mean, again, you know, we're looking at insider buying. People say to me, and this is one that the media gets wrong all the time, "Oh, so-and-so is buying. Oh, so-and-so is selling." I don't care. What I do care about is, "What is their track record, right? What is their track record of buying? Are they a value buyer, or are they a catalyst buyer? Right?"
Value buyers, the same as value investors, will buy, and buy, and buy, and buy, and you'll be dead buying because you're just buying all the way down. I don't like those sort of people. So, we try – we have 40 years of data of insiders, and we know who the key insiders are. And that's very important for an investor to look at as well, right? They got to look, who is this guy? Is he any good at buying his own stock?
A lot of investors – sorry, a lot of managers are not very good at buying their own stock. Again, they're just value buyers. They're just buying on the way down. I don't want to be that guy. I want to be a guy that is buying ahead of an event. So we have those, and we look at those, those type of insiders, a couple that with a fundamental analysis, and we get great names. But certainly that transformational change, there's RMTs. You've had, also Johnson & Johnson as well, was recently. So anything that is kind of misunderstood and people are uninformed, right?
Let's take this from the other point of view, where IPOs are − and I don't like IPOs, are the most manufactured investments you can get, right? "I want to sell, as a broker, stock to you at the highest possible price. Can you buy it from me, please?" Well, no, I don't. Right? Or do I want to get − I wanted to get some other weird stuff that is just given to me, like a spinoff, or given to me through something else, or I don't understand the dynamics of the corporate change. So that that's what I like. I like stuff where people don't really understand. Or, and this is a real issue, that they don't want to understand.
Dan Ferris: Don't want to understand, what are some – what's an example of something investors don't want to understand?
Jim Osman: I mean, certainly spinoffs overall, right? That's the first one. But also –
Dan Ferris: Oh, anything complicated, is what you're saying. Something that's complicated. Yeah. I get it.
Jim Osman: I mean, anything, yeah, anything coming up, even the, you know, the Johnson & Johnson, the RMT.
Corey McLaughlin: Or even maybe something that doesn't align, you know, personally, perhaps.
Jim Osman: What's that, Corey?
Corey McLaughlin: I was just going to say, you know, things they're not interested in, or maybe they just don't, they're not, you know, aligned with personally, you know, like from a worldview perspective.
Jim Osman: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's boil down again. I'd like to boil this down for what it actually is: "I don't want to do the work. Can you do it for me, please?"
Dan Ferris: That's it. Yes.
Jim Osman: [Laughter] "And can I make lots of money when you do it for me as well, please?"
Dan Ferris: Yeah, that's right. "And can it all happen quickly, please?" Yeah.
Jim Osman: "Tell me now, Nvidia is going to double. I'm going to buy. I'm going to come back in six months and sell. Thank you very much. Appreciate you all." So like I say, we live in a world where people don't want to do any work on anything. But whenever, again, let's take a broad point of view, because I want people to understand − that if you see something that's kind of complicated, you've got to go down to the basis of why the company [is] doing it. Right? Why are they doing it?
And then if you can get to that basis of why they're doing it − is it for strategic reasons, regulatory reasons? It could be for, you know, market demand. You know, IBM, for example, right, is a great one. IBM, it was a spinoff again. And, yeah, we are focused on a lot of spinoffs, but they spun off Kyndryl. Kyndryl was an awful company, and we spotted, that listed at, like, $30. It went down to $7. But then they restructured, done some jiggery pokery, refinanced the debt, and now it's back up at like $35.
So, you know, this can be a great hunting ground for crap businesses that, why are they doing it? Because they just want to get rid of the business that IBM don't do, just an outsourcing business. So they got rid of that. But people don't take the time to look at these things. And I think that's the overall message, I would say, for investors − if a company is doing something strategically, or changes their corporate structure, just look into it. Just look into it. Just take the time, because that could be some real gold in there.
Dan Ferris: What is remarkable here, that you're telling me, is that in this day and age, with everyone combing through the market, there's still some place where not enough people are looking, is what I'm hearing. Am I wrong? That's what I'm hearing you say, which it's remarkable.
Jim Osman: I mean, here's an example, right? So WPC, you'll know W.P. Carey, a big company, spun off failure, spun off a REIT in the last year. The REIT was NLOP, N-L-O-P. N-L-O-P. [If] investors want to look that up. Now, we knew there was going to be selling, right? We knew that [inaudible] was going to jump out of an index, because natural, in this index, people can't hold these smaller names, and they just sell them, right? You tell me the market is inefficient. There's your first tick. It isn't. They just sell the names, right? It comes in, I don't know, just sell it. So big institutions just selling willy-nilly, whatever they don't need to own, right? There's the first thing.
So this entity listed at $40, $50, or $60. Next stop, $9. At $9, this thing was 40% of their asset value. Now you don't need to be anyone, or top analyst, to understand that you're buying a cheap one-dollar bill, right? So, you know, we just recommend that the clients are buying it to the head case, in one month later. It's at 22. Now it's up at 30. Still [inaudible] maybe 40. So just recognizing these situations is enough for investors, and that's how I really want to boil it down − is simplicity here.
If you're bothered enough to look, you'll find this stuff. And there's plenty of them. You know, even the big companies, there's plenty of these companies. Look, even PHINIA spun off with BorgWarner last year. PHINIA was a company that BorgWarner said, you know what, we want to separate our EV business from our old-school car business. And at the time, everyone was like, yeah, well, you know what, it's all, it's all electronic cars. It's all electric cars now. No one wants this crap.
So this thing listed at like 20, 22. We said hold on a second. This has got inherent value here. This is worth a lot more. And then everyone said, well, you know what, maybe people will be using regular cars in the next foreseeable future. This thing's gone to, like, 50 or 60 now. So if you can recognize what people – again, analytical edge, behavioral edge, you can get some great investments.
Dan Ferris: All right. Yeah, all the things you're telling me, it sort of – it kind warms my heart as an investor, because the market has kind of soared, and, you know, and by some metrics, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's really expensive. But you can find things, can't you? This discussion reminds me of a book by a guy named Peter Cundill, and I think the title was – his book was, There's Always Something to Do. Is that fair to say that that's your outlook, Jim? There's always something to do.
Jim Osman: Yes. Absolutely. I was interviewed recently, and they said, "Jim, why is there so many spin-offs at the moment?" And I said, well, you know what, again, let's boil down to simplicity, because we can always [inaudible] people with signs, and say where they're coming from, or why they're doing it in the dynamics. But you know what, in rising markets, Dan, what we see is companies getting fuller valuations, right? We all agree on that.
So on that basis, their entities are becoming full. So at the tops of markets, and I'm not saying this to talk because I don't really predict markets, but certainly, historically, at the tops of markets, there's more spinoffs, right? If I have something full up there, and I say, well, you know what, I need to create a little bit more value. Let's just spin this off. It's got a great valuation. Let's spin it off. You see a lot of spinoffs.
Consequently, at the bottom of markets, you see a lot of spinoffs, too, because people want to just want to get rid of rubbish. If you remember, it's a long time ago, 2008, but also 2021, too, early 2022, you saw a lot of spinoffs. People were just like, just get me off of these things. You know, 2008, an extreme example, I know, but people just wanted to get rid of their financial firms. I don't want this. This is awful. Get it out. Some of those spinoffs produced some of the best companies ever. So we're seeing that at the moment, and that's just something that, you know, it's a guide. It's not a prediction. It's a guide for investors to take away.
We've seen an awful lot of spinoffs, so company valuation is awful, but there's opportunity within [those] spinoffs, whether they come on cheap, whether it shapes the parents, and make a little bit more value, which we've seen. And, you know, if I just jump around a little bit, what we've seen in the last year is − it's not a spin-off that's been the value, it's the parent. See, people like Jacobs, or like Illumina, they're spun off, they're bad entities. They're dumped a load of debt on them, and they've become a cleaner company. So in fact, that valuation just goes up. So that's the opportunity within the corporate-change space of any, any sort of corporate change that the company announced in, particularly spinoffs, the investors should look at, because there's, like you say, always something to do.
Dan Ferris: All right.
Corey McLaughlin: I don't want you to give away or ask you to give away all your secrets here. But for people that don't actively track, you know, spinoffs, how are you even starting to find the companies that are planning it, are doing it, that sort of thing?
Jim Osman: Yeah, absolutely. No, I'll give away everything that I've got. I want people to win. You know, you can look at your screen, these things. You can come to us. We do that, we do a small, nimble product. The website's just changing now, but you can certainly drop me a mail and ask me how. We track all those. So where are you looking at public and now spinoffs? Whether they do or don't, they're thinking about it. Yeah, it's on our radar. But until they announce it, there's a huge deal risk, right?
There's a huge deal risk between them announcing it, but even then, before announcing it, and then actually happening. So I say, you know what, "Corey, Dan, I'm having a party." You go, "Great, Jim." And six weeks later, "Is he having that party? Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't." I'm not having that party anymore. And you, and you banked, you banked on that day. So same sort of thing. And now it's a spinoff. How are we going to [inaudible] the form tens? And there's a process for this on all the filings that come up to the spin.
And we monitor that, and eventually we'll do the full analysis in terms of fundamentals, technical, and insider, going back to Greenblatt, and we'll have a look at, you know, whether it makes sense to buy parents, buy spinoffs, but it's a tracking process. But for a normal individual, man, yeah, either come to us, or just go − you know, look for these things that announce, and then follow them and track them. But that's why, I guess we're in business because we do all that for institutional clients, and the school clients, too.
Dan Ferris: Jim, before we hit the record button on this podcast, we were talking about a very recent post of yours on X, and you were talking about the Stargate AI project. And you know, you listed ten key points that you thought were shaping the future. And you mentioned the major players, OpenAI, Softbank, Oracle, UAE's, MGX. And you pointed out that Softbank shares were like up 8% right after the announcement. That strikes me as, you know, it's a catalyst, isn't it? It's not a spinoff, but it's a catalyst, it seems like your kind of situation. Are you actively looking for some way to take advantage of this, or you're just kind of noticing and posting about it?
Jim Osman: I feel there's a couple of things. I mean, one, we − as an investor, you should be looking to the future, right? You should be buying the future. I'm a firm believer that. Don't tell me that this thing's cheap − because everybody knows it's cheap. And if everybody knows it's cheap, why is it going up, or why is hasn't it going up, right? Or why will it go up? It's like an Alibaba, right? I've [inaudible] me against the market the whole way down.
Dan Ferris: [Laughter]
Jim Osman: It's like, it's cheap. It's cheap. It's a melting iceberg. That's what it is, you know? And the same with a lot of these other value stocks, value investing, as it is, is dead, right? You can't tell me, "I have a cheap stock to buy. Please buy me and it will go up." It doesn't work. You need some sort of catalyst to move it, to price the value. So in answering your question, Dan, I'm always looking for the future.
And we've promoted some of these stocks before because, to take account of – some of these ones that are not even not on there are byproducts. Even WDC, you know, they're separated into two businesses in two weeks, one to the flash drive, one to the cloud. The cloud is big AI, it's going to benefit from this. Stock's up 4% already this morning. You know, investors should buy that ahead of the spinoff. SMTC, another one. You know, they do data centers. You know, we've got our clients in at 20 bucks. It's now 80 bucks a year later. You know, it'll break up sooner or later because they've got two entities as well, that's worth $100-plus.
You know, these are the stuff that we've kind of predicted, because we see the future, and we see the future technology. But was it desperately all those stocks? Probably not. Should you have those stocks in a portfolio? Yeah, you know, they're great tech stocks, but the byproducts of that can be underneath that. So as an investor, I'm always looking to the future. What is the future going to hold? Why is the future going to catch up with my thinking?
And this is the kind of result of it today − it comes along, I want to invest in that future. So that's really my philosophy, to be honest, rather than saying, "Oh, this job's cheap on a fundamental basis." So what? A computer is going to get there every day of the week faster than you on that basis.
Dan Ferris: I see, so Stargate is just when you see somebody throwing 500 billion at something, it gets your attention, and you want to know about it, and you want to know what's going on, and have it just in mind as you look for any ideas that might be related?
Jim Osman: Yeah, absolutely. And it goes back to news flow, right? If you're an investor out there, and your action on news flow, you're probably lost, and you probably missed it, right? That's, that's the result of hopefully what you've been thinking for a while. Because, you know efficient data will stem down, and you'll be lost on the line. So never react on news flow. You know, that's – it's gone by then. It's gone however fast you think you are.
Dan Ferris: Yeah, you know also, my co-host is much more polite than me. He said he doesn't want you to give away your secrets, but I want them all, Jim. I want them all.
Jim Osman: Absolutely, man.
Dan Ferris: [Laughter]
Jim Osman: Listen, I'm putting down everything I know. And if anyone reads either the bar-chart articles, or the Forbes articles, I give away. I mean, I frequently, "Jim, why are you giving some away?" I want to give some away, because I want you to win. And let's be real, if Ronaldo writes a book on soccer, are you going to be as good as him on soccer? Probably not, right, but, you know −
Dan Ferris: But you want it.
Jim Osman: Yeah, so that's my philosophy, really. I'm passionate about helping investors. If you want to take me for information, I'm always answering stuff if I can, if I got time.
Dan Ferris: So you're the Ronaldo of spinoffs then?
Jim Osman: I wish I was. He's got more followers than me. He's got more money than me.
Dan Ferris: [Laughter] Yeah, I think he's got more than a lot of us, followers and money both. Is there anything, you know − in all seriousness, it is nice when we can – we like to teach our listeners how to fish. But do you have a fish for us? If not, it's cool. But is there something right now that you really like that you think has some decent upside to it, that you want to tell us about?
Jim Osman: Yeah, absolutely, Dan. So we got Western Digital, which I mentioned, right?
Dan Ferris: Mm-hmm.
Jim Osman: Western Digital, you know, everyone's going to have those little flash drives, right? Everybody knows them. It's a com company. I don't want to give anything too obscure. They're separating their flash business, SanDisk, which everyone knows as well – which they tried to merge it with a company called [inaudible], I think a while ago, about a year ago, and it didn't work. So they're going to distribute some SanDisk shares, and you're going to see that, and you're going to see their cloud business separate into two.
So the basis of that − again, people should do their own work, and do their own analysis, but this is a company that I own, and I want to make that clear. Any companies that we recommend, I will buy. You know, as a researcher, I will buy. Why should I tell you anything that I don't own? Right? It's just, like, that disclosure statement is like crazy. You don't own shares? You see them up on the CNBC, or you see where, "I don't own shares, but I'll telling you to buy it." What? I'm in it.
I own WDC. And I would recommend it to clients to buy as well. Why not? So that's a great one, where they're separating two reasonable businesses. The flash-drive business aren't so good, so you can see a tail off on that. But the distribution of shares − so if you own the pair, and you're going to get the spin, the spin will fall, I think. But if it falls, it's an opportunity to buy more, and you're going to get two great businesses eventually, one a good valuation, the other is the cloud business, and we all know what's going on there, too.
So great separation. And just from further from that, down the line, you know, we've got like, 25 years of data now in spins, around 30%, 35% of them get taken over around a two-year rule, because the tax rule goes at that stage. So, they can be acquired. And these are prime businesses that have been acquired down the line. So if you want good business for a longer term, potentially acquired, here you go. There's one. I'll also give you another one − Lennar, again, one I mentioned.
Dan Ferris: Yeah.
Jim Osman: A big company, big company, big house builder. They've been suffering a little bit because they've been getting a lot of debt. The mortgage rates have been going up. But there's a shift toward a more asset and land-light strategy. So they're spinning off what they call "Millrose Properties," and it'd be the only publicly land-based bank REIT. So two very good companies there separating, again, that move to offload a little bit of assets, be a little bit asset light.
And this is where, you know, it gets very interesting for me, and it should get interesting of investors to investigate a little bit more. OK, I own Lennar, a great opportunity there. So there's two for you.
Dan Ferris: All right, yeah, I like Lennar. I've covered that company myself.
Corey McLaughlin: Nice. Yeah, I've got a Western Digital external hard drive.
Dan Ferris: They're everywhere, yeah.
Jim Osman: So two huge companies, everybody knows, but you probably didn't know they were spinning off.
Dan Ferris: Did not. I absolutely did not.
Jim Osman: You got a range of these coming up. You know, Honeywell is a good one. There's loads on the calendar. So again, you won't know until you wake up one day and they appear on your Schwab, on your whatever you got − and you go, "What's that?" And a real nuance of spins is the fact that they're all sort of named a bit silly. I don't know why. It's just a nuance. But you're going to go, "What's this? I've got some fractional shares of some company I don't know nothing about. I'm just going to sell it. It looks like a nonprofit. I'm just going to sell it." It could be your worst decision ever.
Dan Ferris: [Laughter]
Corey McLaughlin: Can we talk about the Honeywell one for a second. Are you referring to the AI part of that?
Jim Osman: [Crosstalk] stripping of a lot of stuff. But I think they're swinging off there, which one is it coming up? Because they've just made – it's their advanced-materials division. I mean, it's not so interesting. I think it happens, I think sometime this year, actually, probably a little bit later. But again, I don't want to encourage too many people in this too early on. Why? Because there's not the information to act on it.
And that really is − because what we saw in previous years − and I've been doing this for a long time now − someone has a spinoff, stock goes up. We're like, what does the stock go up for? What does that even mean? You know what I mean? It's just, like, it's nonsense in terms of our brain. So again, they plan to spin off their advanced-materials business to shareholders, I'm just trying to find the date − at the end of 2025. Yeah, I knew it was a while, a while later.
So it's not desperately, really, to look at. And, you know, just say, put it on your radar. Watch the form tens file in, and then just kind of build up, where the cash is going, where the debt was going. More importantly, who's managing the business, right? You know, we see all these dynamics in spins where they say, "Oh, Jim, you know, he's a super entrepreneurial guy. He's taking hold of the advanced-materials business. You know, it's all him. He's going to drive –"
When you see, when you see good people taking care of good businesses, you're like, "All right, you know, he could do some good stuff there, along with the fundamentals, along with the business type, could make some great investments." So that's a little bit while, but that was the one I was referring to coming up. But there's a whole load in between then, and just, you know, names you would have heard of, too. They're not, they're not weird companies.
Dan Ferris: OK, speaking of − let's talk about another company. Actually, I was just looking, as you were talking, I was just looking at headlines. And eight days ago as a headline, "Honeywell to spin off aerospace unit" now.
Jim Osman: Right. So like I said, they're stripping down pretty good. So there's a lot of them. And like I said, we actually, we helped the activists, and we forced them very early on, way back in − when was it, more like 2022, or '18, it could have been − to break up. And they kind of ignored our calls. And they moved to North Carolina, if you remember, right, from New Jersey, so – and then they spun off Garrett Motion.
It's a great example. They spun off Garrett Motion and [Residio Technologies]. Those two companies were like dirt. They put a billion dollars of debt on those companies. They nearly went bankrupt. In fact, I think Garrett Motion, maybe even, you know, filed for bankruptcy. But when they turn it around, GTX, I think is the ticker, R-E-Z-I is the other ticker. They kind of rebounded huge. So these − Honeywell were, like, you know, want to be a streamlined company, same as Danaher. Danaher [has] been very effective in doing this. I wrote a lot about Danaher just spinning off. Veralto is a great one, V-L-T-O, spun off for $70. Now it's 100-odd-bucks.
So these are great companies, but they're spinning off – they're trying to get leaner as the market progresses, because they just have to − because that conglomerate thing just doesn't work anymore in certain companies. And you're going to see this, perhaps, in the tech industry as well.
Dan Ferris: All right. I want to tell everybody, if you – you have no cause to doubt Jim's credentials as a contrarian, because he wrote a recent piece in Forbes about Boeing. And you know, Boeing is an embattled company. They've had, they've had some real, serious problems. They're carrying people around − in these flying tubes. And you know, when the doors fall off the tubes, and they fall out of the sky and stuff, it's really bad for business. Maybe you could just – the article, actually, it's quite an article. It really, it's nice and long. It's got all kinds of good parts to it. Maybe what you see here, like, why now, after, you know, a couple years of real trouble at Boeing. Why now?
Jim Osman: Yeah. And you know what? So we're looking at good quality companies. I mean, yeah, are we Warren Buffett? I'm not sure we are. But I'm certainly looking at good quality companies that have fallen, and why not? And, Boeing appeared on the radar. And you know, we saw the GE fall, right? We all saw that GE fall. Great company. We all had it, you know, I mean, maybe I didn't, but as an American, you were forced to have it. It's like, why wouldn't you have GE, right? You know, you're crazy not to.
But you saw that investment fall right down. And we was, I was looking at, and I saw the same characteristics as GE, right? You have to remember, and this is very controversial, and I've been, you know, kind of hit at, really, for a lot of this Boeing stuff − because there's a lot of articles on there, that, you know, a lot of the GE people jump ship on the way down to Boeing. And sadly, when I look for, when I look for a great investment, I'm looking for good management. But everyone says that. But what is good management? Good management, to me, are visionary leaders, right?
You look at a great company. You might not like Zuckerberg. The guy's a visionary leader. You might not like Elon Musk. He's a visionary leader. And I've said this for a long time, look where people got real vision. And sadly, what happened in GE, you had a load of engineers. No disrespect to engineers − great, great sort of area to be in… But are they managers? They just jumped there, and they jumped onto the BA board. And they're doing exactly the same thing, destroying the value.
This is very interesting story. [I] went on to a fund manager, and he said, "Jim, you know what –," this is when the stock was 220, and this is when I shorted it. They said, "Jim, we don't like spinoffs. We buy good quality companies." And I said, "OK, what is that?" He said, "BA." And I went, right, that's it. I've been looking at the stock, and then as soon as I got off the phone, I shorted it.
Dan Ferris: [Laughter]
Jim Osman: So it was a contrarian view, but you know, the stock went down to 139, which would come out with, we got current clients into it around that stage... But at that stage again, what was the behavioral edge? The behavioral edge was, "Jim, this is a great company, you know, blah, blah, blah," or it's finished, or whatever. There was all the problems with the 737 MAX. Americans particularly get very, very scared about that stuff, too. Stock was getting sold after sold.
But we also had the analytical edge, and this is where it really gets interesting. The analytical edge at 139 means the sum of the parts, if you break this company up the same as GE − three or four pieces − could be double. So I bought the company, personally, 139. I bought it at 145 as well. Quite a lot. I wrote a letter to the CEO, some bar chart [inaudible]. I wrote two letters to [the] CEO, saying that as a, as a shareholder, he has a duty to look at this value creation, which I'm suggesting and evaluate it.
And what was interesting, and not many people know this, is that shortly afterwards, Dan, I got an e-mail from the head of the workers in BA, and he said, "Jim, you know what?" He said, "This is my name. I checked him out on LinkedIn. He's been there for 25, 30 years." He said, "Jim, we actually agree with what you said." And I thought, wow. I said, "So I'm getting the buy-in from the share. I'm getting the buy-in from the workers. The share price needs it. It's going to double the share." Why wouldn't you look at that?
Dan Ferris: Yeah.
Jim Osman: So now what we've seen is, no, the company didn't answer my letters at all. But what we've seen is a stock move up to, what, 175 now. It went up to 180 recently. But from 139 to 175, so we're at the inherent value. And if they do break up, and I see some today looking at, you know, some sort of 500 share price − I'm not so sure about that, but you see a double of the stock price. So that's the margin of safety I'm looking at in terms of an activist point of view.
But it needs it. They're hemorrhaging money. They need to display the same − to assure investors, − not only investors and shareholders, but also the public − that they're a quality company and they're doing stuff about it. Because at this stage, we do not have a visionary leader. We do not have a visionary board. We need someone who can give you the confidence that he is doing something and I don't think we got that. So, as a shareholder, I'm thinking, you know, I need to keep pushing for that breakup. They need to do something. It has to happen. And so I think we see the share price go higher.
Dan Ferris: Yeah. So that that lack of visionary means more upside, probably, it sounds like.
Jim Osman: I think so. But moreover, then they're going to have to do something. They're going to have to do something to their entities. You know, they've got four entities in there, [that] are very extensive, and go and have a look at it… And the investors should go and have a look on the Forbes. It's all free. But yeah, I just think they have to do so. Otherwise, you know, in a downturn market, the companies with a high debt are the first ones going to get hammered, but we're not going to go bankrupt, right? I'd say not. I hope not.
But in material terms, this stock could suffer on the way down because people like it, so then they're really going to have to do so. And GE were in that position where they had to do something. Right now, in a great market, maybe they don't have to do it, but they will – they would need to do it sooner or later.
Dan Ferris: Right. Yeah. It's good when there's uncertainty, isn't it? A guy like you can thrive. Yeah.
Jim Osman: Yeah, you can capitalize on it. But like I said, you just got to keep focused on, one, the numbers, and two, you know, what you're after, because this company could turn around and it could go the other way very quickly. And we saw what happened to GE. It was messy.
Dan Ferris: Right. Yeah, it's all messy, man. [Laughter] It's all messy. So let's – yeah, I mean, is there another, is there another company that you want to talk about just before I move on here?
Jim Osman: I mean, not really. I mean, there's − let's see, we've got about 25 spinoffs tabled on the candle. It's more spinoffs all the time. Where the insiders come up, we like it, where the source has some sort of transformation, I like it. But there's a couple there to go on for people to do their work on, and they're not happened yet. So the next two, three weeks, there's plenty of time for people to do the work.
Dan Ferris: OK. I wanted to backtrack on something. You mentioned, insider buying, and I just wanted to sort of get a little deeper dive into your capability there because it sounded like you said you had 40 years of data. And it sounded to me like you were suggesting that you knew who the best insider buyers were. Like when, this guy buys, he's not so great, but when this guy buys, we pay attention that sort of thing. Do I – am I interpreting that correctly?
Jim Osman: Yeah, well, we tried that. I mean, absolutely. I mean, again, let me tell you from an investor's point of view, if you're an investor listening and you listen to those headlines, "So and so sold stock. He's bought stock." I mean, it's all BS, really. I mean, what you have to really look into underneath is, you know, who is that guy? What is his net worth? How much has he bought compared to his net worth? Has he been any good in the past, right?
Let me give you a great example. So we looked at Danaher. This is one I mentioned before. Danaher is a great example. Yeah, everybody knows about it. DHR is the ticker, you know. They have a spinoff company called Veralto. Not many people heard of Veralto. VLTO is the ticker. Now we looked at the Rales brothers, who are very secretive. You know not many pictures about on the Internet with those guys, very secret what they do. They have a very focused approach to create value, and they've spun off forever. And it's a great company to own for the longer term.
But they've had many spinoffs. So we thought, well, hold on a second. What makes this spinoff any better from a rest, right? OK, so we had a look at the business ones. It was a good business. It's a kind of water-treatment business, right? You know, water treatment is just going to be there forever. OK? So good business, first of all. That we don't need to talk about, the mechanics of that. But then we looked at saying, well hold on, Rales brothers are increasing their increasing their stake again. And then we looked at, how many spinoffs in the past have they actually taken positions in, right?
And it turns out there was a number of them, but they only took a position in about two post-spin. And I thought, "That's interesting." And then come the spinoff of Veralto. They took a position in Veralto. And that was a strong signal for us because maybe they've done, I don't know how many spins, multiple spins, but they took a position in so many. So that was another good sign for us. Again, take the mechanics at the basis of the valuation, and all that stuff surrounding it, coupled with that, but just take the insiders. And that warrants a good, strong, hard look at the spinoff. They've only taken a position in two others they've ever done.
So that, coupled with the fundamentals, coupled with the business, coupled also [with] the fact that there's one for investors to take with them. You asked me about other stocks. Veralto has a water-treatment business, but they also have a coding business, like stickers and stuff on packaging. Totally weird. So what we thought was, "Down the line, this is going to separate as well." So, there's another spinoff within the spinoff. And look at the Rales brothers, their brains, that they're probably going to go for that down the line.
So not only have they taken a position, not only was it cheap, not only we believe there's another spinoff coming − again, we got clients into 70 bucks, right? It's gone up to 100 bucks. I think it's going to be a spinoff, a great long term hold. Great, solid company as well. So that's the kind of stuff that we look at, coupled with the fundamentals. So great insiders. And yeah, there's people who know their own stock, right?
We can look back on wherever company that they've been, and then say, like, "Yeah, Dan, he was great at this stock, that company, at that company. Every time he's bought, stock's gone up 20%, 30%, 40%, or been taken over." So to identify those, what we call "key insiders," is quite significant, I think. But again, coupled with fundamental analysis, can be quite, quite powerful to your armory.
Corey McLaughlin: Yeah, I love this point. And just how insiders can be buying and selling too, like you said before, but also be not great at it too. I'm curious. Like, has anybody comes to mind off the top of your head, like, who's just like a terrible insider, buyer, seller − [crosstalk]
Jim Osman: I mean, typically, most of them are value people. But remember, value investors, where people's attitude, "I'm buying this. It's cheap. I'm buying this. It's cheap." And it keeps going down, right? Is that a good buyer, or is that not a good buyer? I mean, it's debatable, right? It's like, well, I'm buying it until, you know, it goes up. I mean, is that – I don't [inaudible] of buy.
So in the same vein, we see inside, there's a lot of them [that] do that sort of thing, right? Look, they're in the company for − plan to be 10 years-plus. "Well, I want to buy some now. I think it's cheap. Well, I want to buy something." But do they know what they're doing? Maybe not. So you really got to look as an investor to the [inaudible] advice.
If you see some significant guys buying, and they're buying quite a lot, and there's a group of them, "cluster buying," we call it, maybe there's a CFO, maybe there's a CEO, maybe there's a legal guy, maybe there's a non-exec director, very powerful, if they're doing it, right. He's the guy from outside, been brought in, and he says, well, hold on, these guys are doing some great stuff. I'm getting them back on board in there. You know, those sort of people − identify who they are first. And if they're significant, then have a look and see their background. So most of them, to answer your question, Corey.
But on the flipside, and I know you didn't ask this. But I think this is very significant, what I remember. If an investor, if an insider is selling, there's only one time you want to be very careful, just one time, right? And it's on the way down. If management is selling into weakness, be super careful. All right? Because that means he wants out. Right? That's the only time you should be very, very careful, because investors sell for another reason, right? You and me, us three, we're selling − Stock goes up. We go, "Great, we need that money for all these housing repairs I'm doing." Right? "Let's sell, let's sell some stock."
It goes up again. "Oh, we need a new car, right? Let's sell it." You're going to sell regardless, right? It's not about − you don't think when you sell the stock is going down. You think you're going to take some profit, right? That's the mentality. So if the stock is on its way down, here's a great example, and I know it's way old, but it's the one that everyone remembers, is Enron. They were selling on the way down, so aggressively, trying to get out. And look what happened.
So that's the one thing investors want to take from the buy side and the sell side. Because it doesn't matter if we sell. We all sell stock to gain the money. Look at us. We're great. Stock went up. We made lots of money. Fantastic. You know, no one cares, right? If it's going down and the insides are selling and there's a gain, more powerful, if there's a group of them, just be super, super aware.
Dan Ferris: All right, so I just want to fully cover this. You're way into spinoffs. You're into insider buying. Is there any other category that's important to you as an investor?
Jim Osman: I mean, some − like I say, I'm looking where people are not looking, right? If there's an IPO coming out − and IPOs, for us, have got less and less value over years, and we got the data to prove it, right? You used to be able to buy an IPO, it goes up. "Hey, I'm the greatest. I got in," and I sell at 20% of the next day. That doesn't happen anymore, right? Why? Because they're manufactured investments.
So why I prefer the way when the IPOs come, when they get decimated and everyone's puking them at the bottom, that's when I'm looking. So fallen investments, often securities, fallen IPOs, anything that people don't want, weird kind of structures, privatizations, ID, mutualizations, that's a good one. Falling spinoffs is a great one, really. People just don't want these things that they don't understand them. But anything that changes the dynamics of the company.
Dan Ferris: What about like, you know, there was a ton of SPACs in the in the bubble there, 2021, and most of them, of course, got absolutely obliterated. You find anything among those?
Jim Osman: No. No. Absolutely awful. I think we − I think my guy went – I couldn't make the – I was throwing sticks out of my mind. It's on the Internet somewhere, but we've done a study on SPACs, and we said none of these are any good. They all lose money. And we had people coming on to us saying, "Jim, if you can find the money for us, we can, we can –." I was like, hold on a second. There's a, there's a lot of, there's a lot of alarm bells ringing to my small brain here. People wanting to raise money, to raise these SPACs.
And they were, they were all – literally none of them produced any money. I mean, even I was one of the early guys in Playboy, run that up, sold it at like $35, and said, "Jim, you're stupid. This is going to $60." And then it kind of went to zero. So it's not a great hunting ground, because, again, they are – they're less regulated than IPOs, and I don't like IPOs. So a quick way into the market is not always a great thing for investors to invest in, because they're less regulatory. And you know, you it's a bad bet. I don't like, I don't like SPACs.
And we went on to – just to make my last point, I couldn't make the interview on CNBC, is on the Internet, my guy, where he said, "We've just done a study, and it shows none of these make money." The SPAC market fell apart after that. It was just lucky rather than good, but it was good timing. But yeah, I don't like that market at all. It's just, I don't like it.
Dan Ferris: Fair enough. I'm not surprised by that answer. So we are – it is time for our final question. And it's the same final question for every guest. You actually answered it when you were here before, and I hope you don't remember it, because I believe it works better that way.
Jim Osman: Probably – I'm going to give the same answer.
Dan Ferris: OK, that's good. Well, hey, that's OK. Same question for every guest, same final question. No matter what the topic, even if it's a non-financial topic. Same final question. If you've already said the answer, by all means, feel free to repeat it. The question is, very simply, it's for our listener. If you could give our listener just one takeaway, if you could just leave them with one thought today, what would you like that to be?
Jim Osman: Never look at P&L. Always look at risk first. Analyze risk first. Whatever you do, evaluate risk. OK? What is my downside? How much have I got to lose? Now, if you can quantify the risk, quantify in Boeing, quantify in Mayer, some of the biggest stocks around. It was a no-brainer. I was ready to bet the bet the house on those stocks. OK? The rest is history. Because there was limited downside. There just wasn't any downside.
So if an investor can do that, and be absolutely sure of his downside, the rest is gravy, if fundamentals change and things change, you can reevaluate, right? You can say, OK, I got this wrong. I didn't see that coming, and all the rest of it. But evaluate risk first. And I say that again and again and again on Twitter, until my head goes in.
As long as you can quantify the risk, the upside will take care of itself. The moment you say, this stock's got so much upside, and you jump into it. But this tweet today, if you think great, I'm going to go for Oracle, and Mayer, and all these other stocks, you're onto a loser. You don't know your downside. But that's the one thing I'll say.
Dan Ferris: I love that answer. Thank you, Jim. I knew I could count on you for a great answer. And listen, thanks for being here. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks very, very much.
Jim Osman: I appreciate it.
Dan Ferris: All right. And maybe we'll give you a call back before another two and a half years goes by. [Laughter] Maybe we'll do that.
Jim Osman: I hope so.
Dan Ferris: Yeah, all right, thanks a lot.
Jim Osman: All right. Thanks for the opportunity. Appreciate it, guys. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Dan Ferris: I love talking with Jim. He's the real deal. A bottom-up, focused investor with lots of good ideas. I mean, we've got tickers, you know, if you're taking notes, you've got a lot of good homework to do. I love that. I loved every minute of it.
Corey McLaughlin: Yeah, that was fun. That was a fun listen for me, too. Yeah, like you said, very defined. You know, what he's looking at, and how he goes about it, and has very sound reasoning for it. And it sounds like it's been paying off for him, you know, with the spinoffs, and also, but even just taking that approach towards a stock, like, like Meta in 2022. I mean, that was a great time to buy it. So it's, I mean, that tells you a lot, just about how he goes about things.
And so, yeah, it was fun to – I'm definitely going to check out his work more myself about different articles that he's writing, and whatnot. His point about a lot of people don't want to do this work. Yeah, a lot of people don't want to do the work. So if you could find somebody who does the work for you, like him, that's pretty good.
Dan Ferris: Yeah. And I didn't get a chance to talk about an old book from the late '90s, called Spin-off to Pay-off, by a real nice guy named Joe Cornell that I met at a couple of conferences years ago. But that book, like, convinced me – that, and Joel Greenblatt's book convinced me, like, every time I think about spinoffs, I think to myself, why am I not spending 50% of my time on this? Because it's a fascinating, rich place, where an actual value-oriented guy can find ideas.
And he actually mentioned some of the ones that we've covered in Extreme Value, Danaher and Veralto. And I feel like he mentioned another one that I can't remember right now. But it's a fantastic place to look for stocks. Like, I believe, if the average person listening to this kind of forgot about everything else they were doing, and studied spinoffs for a month, they might never come back. They might never do anything else, right? Because there's so much there.
Corey McLaughlin: Right. I feel like I could see myself doing that, yeah, like not wanting to do anything else if I just focus solely on –
Dan Ferris: Yeah, Corey's gone. That's right, he's doing [crosstalk] – Corey does spinoffs now, and he's, yeah, we won't be seeing him for a while.
Corey McLaughlin: [Laughter] Yeah, right? And just do it. I mean, it's – what I like about it, too, is you can kind of apply the same, you know, thinking, even if you're like a macro thinker, or whatever, about the world, and you're thinking about the different sectors that are going to take off, you know, AI or whatever, you can − rather than looking at Nvidia, or you know, the semiconductor companies, you can have that same outlook or knowledge, but then get into these spinoffs that, like, not a lot of people are fishing in that pond. And you could take the big ideas and apply it to these opportunities that relatively fewer people are looking at. And, yeah, it's interesting.
Dan Ferris: Yeah, that's right, that's a good point there. In spinoffs, there's something for everybody. There's something going on, like, there's so many of them, especially at a time like right now, you can, you can find just about – whatever you're into, you can find the spinoff that applies to it. I agree, yeah. So really, a great, focused investment conversation with a lot of good ideas. I really, really enjoyed that. That's – man, this is our kind of thing. This is why we do this show. So that's another interview, and that's another episode of the Stansberry Investor Hour. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we really, truly did.
We do provide a transcript for every episode. Just go to www.investorhour.com, click on the episode you want, scroll all the way down, click on the word "transcript," and enjoy. If you liked this episode, and know anybody else who might like it, tell them to check it out on their podcast app or at investorhour.com, please. And also do me a favor, subscribe to the show on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and while you're there, help us grow with a rate and a review.
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